Curse

Patrick Smit · Jan 13, 2007, 03:04 PM // 15:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cygnus_Zero

7 heroes would mean that you would never need to play with a human again. This game was not build around solo play. Anet goes out of their way to find way for you to have to play with real people. Of course people find ways around this, but the average player is forced to play with real ppl, and that's what anet wants.

Anet advertices a choice on the game box: play with henchies/heroes or with friends. The PvE experience is not ruined by people using heroes, as you donot have to counter them. The PvP experience is affected by heroes and henches. If you do not want to play with them, then you just look for PUGS or friends that want to join.

freekedoutfish · Jan 13, 2007, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by escoffier

no i'm not saying it should be closed because of that freekoutfish im saying heroes was a gift given to us to help alleviate the PUG problems.however i believe it's well known that 7 heroes would be overpowering in almost all areas besides DoA. now yes a beginner with 7 heroes is not much of a force but, an experienced player with slight foreknowledge of what is ahead of them can easily set there 7 heroes to where it would simply be overpowering.not to mention the fact that it does somewhat remove from the fact that this is a Cooperative Online Role Playing Game.hence the corpg.i apologize for believeing that arenanet has reasons for the things they do such as having a three hero per person limit.oh and please i agree please give me 7 heroes so i can never PUG again(just kidding i like to PUG)

Your logic doesnt really pan out. An experienced player is going to be overpowered in any an area regardless of whether they use 7 heroes or 7 humans.

If an experienced player is anel enough and wants the perfect team, then they can quite easily form the perfect PUG and ask the other players to use certain skills just as easily as they can form a 7 hero team and set their heroes skills.

This is why I believe its wrong to say 7 heroes are anymore overpowered then a 7 human lvl20 team.

Lets assume all your heroes are lvl20. Its no different to you asking guildies, friends or a PUG of lvl20 humans to help you and then asking them to use specific skills. You can set up a PUG the way you want to, just as you can a set of heroes.

And you can also just let your Heroes use their bog standard skills and NOT give them runes or 15^50 weapons and let them use anything, just as you can a PUG.

I know alot of players who dont bother to level their heroes, or give them good weapons or runes. Even if we had 7 heroes, there would still be alot who didnt use them.

As I said in my OP. You cant blame Heroes for being the main reason why PUGs are falling. Their just an effective alternative. If PUG numbers are falling its due to attitudes of the players.

Paperfly · Jan 15, 2007, 06:17 AM // 06:17

Quote:

If an experienced player is anel enough and wants the perfect team, then they can quite easily form the perfect PUG and ask the other players to use certain skills just as easily as they can form a 7 hero team and set their heroes skills.

Easily? You can easily form a perfect PuG in which everyone is not only competent (and fully equipped) enough to perfectly play specific builds, but also spineless enough not to object to your total control?

...You must only play during peak hour!

Sooty · Jan 15, 2007, 08:34 AM // 08:34

I was just thinking today before i saw this post about how i wished you could have seven heroes and started wondering why we couldn't. I couldn't think of a single reason other than that it would make pve easier for us, and i couldn't decide whether that was a good or bad thing. I did feel though that the huge difference in the capability of henchies compared to heroes should not be what makes guild wars challenging.

So yes i would quite like to have 7 heroes enabled.

freekedoutfish · Jan 15, 2007, 09:20 AM // 09:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paperfly

Easily? You can easily form a perfect PuG in which everyone is not only competent (and fully equipped) enough to perfectly play specific builds, but also spineless enough not to object to your total control?

...You must only play during peak hour!

If you are a member of a decent guild, with maxed out players and decent players and the guild members are willing to use set skills and builds in a PUG which you run, then how is that any different to using 7 heroes who's builds you can set?

Saying "easy" was a slight exageration, but that is exactly what people try to do anyway in PUGs.

You enter a PUG in an elite area or a high end area and 9/10 times, you will be asked to use a set skill or build. Example Necros are asked to be MMs, or Monks healers and Rangers interupt or trappers, etc etc etc.

This may happen mostly in high end areas, but it also happens in low end areas too.

You cant deny it happens.

In which case using 7 heroes and setting their skills to whatever you want, is no different to running a PUG and haveing the choice to ask the other members to use set skills.

Whether those other team players are competant or not, makes no difference. Heroes are just as competant as how you make and use them.

Solveig Ikram · Jan 15, 2007, 09:46 AM // 09:46

Firstly I woulkd like to say that perhaps it might be a programming problem for now. I'm probably wrong cause the guys and gals at ANet are geniusses. But my reasoning goes along the the lines of Party size in noob areas being 4 and zoning to such areas with 7 heroes might pose a programming problem. I don't think ANet is trying to force players to play with other humans because then there wouldn't have been Henchman in the first place or heroes for that matter.
And speaking of experience Heroes is more powerful than most human especially Dunkoro and Tahlkora. With the proper build and runes equipped their reaction times are way faster than any human. Just try and fight the the Mursaat uninfused and take them along.

freekedoutfish · Jan 15, 2007, 10:29 AM // 10:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solveig Ikram

Firstly I woulkd like to say that perhaps it might be a programming problem for now. I'm probably wrong cause the guys and gals at ANet are geniusses. But my reasoning goes along the the lines of Party size in noob areas being 4 and zoning to such areas with 7 heroes might pose a programming problem. I don't think ANet is trying to force players to play with other humans because then there wouldn't have been Henchman in the first place or heroes for that matter.
And speaking of experience Heroes is more powerful than most human especially Dunkoro and Tahlkora. With the proper build and runes equipped their reaction times are way faster than any human. Just try and fight the the Mursaat uninfused and take them along.

Whether your in an area with 4 or 8 slots available wouldnt cause problems if we had 7 heroe slots available.

You would just be limited to using the max number of slots for that area. I know because when myself, 2 heroes and 3 other players walked from Yanks bend (6 players) to fort ranik (4 players) in Tyria. When we died and returned to Fort ranik two heroes vanished.

I doubt it would cause any issues.

escoffier · Jan 15, 2007, 12:14 PM // 12:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Your logic doesnt really pan out. An experienced player is going to be overpowered in any an area regardless of whether they use 7 heroes or 7 humans.

If an experienced player is anel enough and wants the perfect team, then they can quite easily form the perfect PUG and ask the other players to use certain skills just as easily as they can form a 7 hero team and set their heroes skills.

This is why I believe its wrong to say 7 heroes are anymore overpowered then a 7 human lvl20 team.

Lets assume all your heroes are lvl20. Its no different to you asking guildies, friends or a PUG of lvl20 humans to help you and then asking them to use specific skills. You can set up a PUG the way you want to, just as you can a set of heroes.

And you can also just let your Heroes use their bog standard skills and NOT give them runes or 15^50 weapons and let them use anything, just as you can a PUG.

I know alot of players who dont bother to level their heroes, or give them good weapons or runes. Even if we had 7 heroes, there would still be alot who didnt use them.

As I said in my OP. You cant blame Heroes for being the main reason why PUGs are falling. Their just an effective alternative. If PUG numbers are falling its due to attitudes of the players.

ok well you have made some good points but it looks like we will have to agree to disagree=)

bhavv · Jan 15, 2007, 02:50 PM // 14:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by pigdestroyer

I dont like this idea one bit, and it wont boost sales, since the players asking for this are ol' pvers(noobs) quite the contrary, new people to the game will feel lonely and eventually leave gw

This is not true. My housemate and his brother have both been playing GW since christmas, and they both prefer and love playing with heroes rather then henchies. One of them is playin prophecies as well, and has a very hard time finding groups for all of the quests, so heroes are very good in this respect. The reason why he cant find pugs isnt because everyone is using heroes, but because there arent enough people doing all of the quests.

I have recently been trying to farm unwalking waters for kunvies air staff. Harvest temple is virtually a dead district and there is never more then 2 - 4 people there, and no one thats ever LFG. All I require to be able to farm the entire area with as few hero/hench as possible is one or 2 more heroes. However, with hench using rubbish skills, I currently need a full party of 8, or 7 at least which really doesnt help green farming in high end areas. Also, before heroes, this region was completely immposible to farm with 8 henchmen.

Ive not read furthur after the quoted post yet, but am doing so now.

bhavv · Jan 15, 2007, 03:17 PM // 15:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by LAMS3K

I'd welcome seven heroes. For build variety and because I dislike henchmen.

My peeve with henchmen: Look at Aidan for example, he has been a marksman for most of his life and is thirty-two years of age. Yet us Rangers who have only been in GW for not even three years create and run builds that pummel any of his into the ground. Are the players that enter the GW world the only ones with any intellect? Now we have heroes that will learn from the player. Henchmen are just too stubborn to learn anything from those they group with. Just food for thought, no need to reply to it. Don't derail the thread.

The Aidan info just hit me on the thinking cap. The most useless henchman ever, believe it or not. Yes, he used practiced stance elite just for kindle arrows....

I use Jin + Zenmai and a monk most of the time for my hero team. Jin and Zenmai run critical barrage way, I use SF, and the monk is usually healers boon. I would love to be able to add one more monk and either an SF or another barrage to get through the higher end areas like unwalking waters [explorable] (not misson).

Quote:

Originally Posted by escoffier

omg this thread is still open,and active we get three for now live with it.i think everyone can make 1 friend and between the 2 of you have 6 heroes and two people.LIVE WITH WHAT YOU'VE BEEN GIVEN.

I have 20+ people on my friends list, mostly for PVP, Im in a farming guild with 90+ members and a full alliance. No one wants to help me with unwalking waters so I use heroes/hench. Except all the hench completely suck in that region (same logic for tyria and NF end game quests).

I went to DWC with my elly becasuse I wanted to play sorrows for fun. It was quite empty and no one there wanted an elly in their group, and again heroes here suck and I would like to be able to use 2 more heroes.

I joined a group for a mission in Nightfall, and the last person that joined was a ranger. Not just any ranger, this one had Reversal of fortune, orison of healing, Smite, Banish, bane signet, troll ungent. He didnt get kicked so I rage quit the group and did the mission with heroes and hench instead.

Please give me 7 heroes.

Paperfly · Jan 17, 2007, 09:05 AM // 09:05

Quote:

If you are a member of a decent guild, with maxed out players and decent players and the guild members are willing to use set skills and builds in a PUG which you run, then how is that any different to using 7 heroes who's builds you can set?

If you newly start playing a game where your only option is to play on your own, with heroes, because no-one will ever group with unknowns, how exactly are you going to get to know these people in this uber-guild of Stepford Wives in the first place??

Case in point: bhavv's post.

freekedoutfish · Jan 17, 2007, 09:16 AM // 09:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paperfly

If you newly start playing a game where your only option is to play on your own, with heroes, because no-one will ever group with unknowns, how exactly are you going to get to know these people in this uber-guild of Stepford Wives in the first place??

Case in point: bhavv's post.

I made that statement in reply to a poster who was saying that using 7 lvl20 heroes, was more over-powered then using 7 lvl20 humans in a PUG.

That was the basis for my arguement.

If your a completely new player with no guild and (presumably) no other characters to share skills with your heroes; then your heroes are going to have very few skills to play with.

In which case any builds you can try to make for your heroes are going to be extremely limited or impossible to make. It will be a case of giving them what ever you can find.

You also have to presume that NEW player has no experience of the character their playing, or the professions of those heroes. They wouldnt know what builds to give them.

So regardless of whether you have 3 or 7 heroes to play with when your new, that rules out the arguement about 7 heroes being overpowered. Which was the basic for that statement.

How-ever once that player gains experience and levels up their heroes and then goes on to make more characters, by which time you assume they join a guild...

....THEN using Heroes would be no different to using guild friends and asking them to set skills too.

But as I said. Unless a player has a character of each profession, then their heroes are NOT 100% usefull. They wont have a huge selection of skills to choose from. It is only experienced players, with gold to spend and a wide selection of characters, who would be able to use heroes 100% effectively.

How effective a hero is relys on how experienced the players is. Since alot of players are new players, or dont have alot of alternative characters to play with. It renders their heroes less usefull.

And you cant just rely on hero-skill-points to buy skills for them, as those are limited.

Kuya B · Jan 18, 2007, 07:05 AM // 07:05

Give the people what they want. They want more heroes! (just a summary cap for Anet to bring up at their next meeting)

Paperfly · Jan 18, 2007, 09:55 AM // 09:55

Quote:

But as I said. Unless a player has a character of each profession, then their heroes are NOT 100% usefull. They wont have a huge selection of skills to choose from. It is only experienced players, with gold to spend and a wide selection of characters, who would be able to use heroes 100% effectively.

How effective a hero is relys on how experienced the players is. Since alot of players are new players, or dont have alot of alternative characters to play with. It renders their heroes less usefull.

And you cant just rely on hero-skill-points to buy skills for them, as those are limited.

Oh, I completely agree with you. I'm just not sure how we're coming to opposite conclusions from the same data, though - why exactly do you see a further breach between experienced and novice players as a good thing for the Guild Wars community?

Kate · Jan 18, 2007, 10:28 AM // 10:28

Freek I see your point about new players who have no-one to play with. But as they progress throughout the game they will be able to learn more with only henchies/heroes and take their time then they would be able to do otherwise. You seem to forget- there are players who prefer to be guildless and play solo. If they want to make friends then I'm sure they can find someone who will help them and let them join a guild.

And In general, I just use henchies and heroes all the time- unless it's a difficult mission such as Nap quarter, where I may only take one hench monk and the rest human. I don't see why you would want to use all heroes. Apart from taking the sense of fun from it all.

freekedoutfish · Jan 18, 2007, 03:02 PM // 15:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paperfly

Oh, I completely agree with you. I'm just not sure how we're coming to opposite conclusions from the same data, though - why exactly do you see a further breach between experienced and novice players as a good thing for the Guild Wars community?

I agree that if your a new user and you see that you can use 7 heroes, you might never feel the need to user PUGs ever.

But since Heroes wouldnt be truly effective until your a higher level, and your more experienced as I explained, then I dont see how they would pull new players away from using PUGs anymore then henches already do.

Ill admit its not a perfect idea.

Perhaps we should give a person access to 7 heroes once they reach lvl20, or they reach a certain NPC inside the game. For instance after killing abaddon.

That would fix the temptation for new players and keep it aimed at experienced players.

Paperfly · Jan 20, 2007, 12:58 AM // 00:58

...Well, I was actually approaching the problem from the opposite direction. The issue I see here is that even more experienced players will stop playing with newer players entirely.

It's already an endemic problem in the community, and it's a big part of the reason why PuGs have such a bad rep - they "inbreed" with only the less competent players participating, so they just get worse.

Franco Power · Jan 20, 2007, 01:01 AM // 01:01

/signed

I just started PvE, and Anet, I don't like your Mhenlo healing breeze trash leetsauce build.

guffey · Jan 20, 2007, 03:14 AM // 03:14

3 heroes is overpowered as it is. i can use 3 heroes and me in areas i would usually need 6-8 henchies, which means slightly better drops. though i would like 7 heroes for things like going back and doing Ring of Fire with my mesmer simply because there are barely any people there and half of them are leechers. but as a person who has played every char except the 4 new ones still, i can do extremely well with only 3 heroes and no henchies. just being able to use Olias as a MM makes a huge difference. keep it at 3 for normal places and mabye change it to seven for end-game areas.

Kuya B · Jan 20, 2007, 03:34 AM // 03:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by guffey

3 heroes is overpowered as it is. i can use 3 heroes and me in areas i would usually need 6-8 henchies, which means slightly better drops. though i would like 7 heroes for things like going back and doing Ring of Fire with my mesmer simply because there are barely any people there and half of them are leechers. but as a person who has played every char except the 4 new ones still, i can do extremely well with only 3 heroes and no henchies. just being able to use Olias as a MM makes a huge difference. keep it at 3 for normal places and mabye change it to seven for end-game areas.

Try your three heroes in Urgoz's Warren. Come back and tell us then how overpowering they are there.